The MormonStories page on the Hill Cumorah has some useful references but is mainly a straw-man argument, building on a straw man others had created decades ago, and then attacking that straw man.
The page makes a good point that several Church leaders in the past embraced a hemispheric geography theory, while others embraced a Mesoamerican setting. In both cases, they created straw men by ignoring what Oliver and Joseph said. People seem to forget that only Joseph and Oliver were personally involved with the events at Cumorah.
In the early 1900s, a couple of members of the RLDS Church came up with the idea of a "limited" geography in Central America and the idea that the "real Cumorah" is not in New York but instead is somewhere in southern Mexico. This was the origin of M2C (the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory). Over the years, a handful of LDS scholars embraced M2C. They began teaching it at BYU and, through the academic cycle, within a couple of generations managed to "mainstream" M2C throughout the LDS community.
The MormonStories article takes M2C as the LDS position, as you'll see below. Because I completely disagree with the M2C scholars, I offer a different perspective than you'll see from either those scholars or MormonStories.
Readers should always examine the assumptions underlying any given conclusion and then decide for themselves.
Below are my comments in red, with the original text from MormonStories in blue.
_____
https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/the-book-of-mormon/hill-cumorah/
HILL CUMORAH
LDS Prophets and numerous Apostles over generations have provided abundant official declarations identifying the hill in New York as the exact site of both epic Book of Mormon battles, where millions of warriors perished with their metal armaments.
[Two assumptions here: millions and metal armaments. Neither are consistent with the text.
The text never says or implies there were millions of warriors in the final battles of either the Jaredites or the Nephites. In 1835, Oliver Cowdery explained there were "thousands" of Jaredites (fewer than 10,000) and "tens of thousands" of Nephites/Lamanites (fewer than 100,000). Those numbers are consistent with the text.
Some think Mormon counted 23 groups of "ten thousand" who perished at Cumorah, but he claimed to see only two such groups: his and Moroni's. He listed the other 21 leaders and their "ten thousand" as having died previously, whether during the final retreat from the Lamanites, or, as I think, during his entire career as a leader of the Nephite armies, starting at age 15.
The term "thousand" can be a literal 1,000, or it can be a military unit of undetermined numbers. Some Bible experts claim the term "thousand" can refer to a group, team, platoon, etc. instead of a set number.
The bodies were not buried. Bones don't last long in the open; otherwise the planet would be covered with the bones of dead animals.
By comparison, the Battle of Hastings in England in 1066 involved 6,000 to 10,000 men. Although well-documented in history, the actual site is in dispute because no evidence of thousands of dead bodies has ever been found.
As for armaments, Mormon 6:9 lists them: "And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war."
Of these, only "sword" is arguably metal, but those who prevail in war typically seize weapons and other useful items from the dead. Stone arrowheads were so abundant around Cumorah that kids used them as skipping stones. Farmers plowed them up and gave them away, as Willard Bean discussed.]
Joseph Smith believed the numerous mounded earth hills located throughout the upstate N.Y. region, now known to be glacial drumlins, to be man-made Indian burial mounds.
[Mind-reading; there are no statements by or attributed to Joseph that he thought these hills were man-made Indian burial grounds.]
He repeatedly stated that the largest of all, the very Hill Cumorah, marked the site of the final battles of two civilizations.
[False claim, but fair inference because Joseph referred to the hill as Cumorah and strongly endorsed Oliver's Letter VII.]
The massive battles depicted in the Book of Mormon represent the largest in human history.
[False claim, as discussed above.]
The Church maintains a large Hill Cumorah Visitor Center, hosting an annual pageant which reiterates the Lamanite narrative and final battle location.
ESTABLISHING CUMORAH IN NEW YORK
As recently as 1990, The Office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church confirmed that Cumorah is in New York. Almost every LDS Prophet since Joseph Smith has reiterated the same narrative.
[Good point. Although some LDS scholars dispute the legitimacy of this letter, it merely restates a long-standing position of Church leaders, starting with Oliver and Joseph.]
FIRST PRESIDENCY LETTER TO BISHOP DARRELL BROOKS, OCT 16, 1990
THE CIVIL WAR COMPARISON
The U.S. Civil War, one of the bloodiest episodes in human history, killed 600,000 men over 4 years. The Book of Mormon asserts triple that number in very short order; even 2,000,000 dead (Ether 15) and later hundreds of thousands using steel weapons and armor (Mormon 6). If true, this would be the largest battle in human history. Yet Cumorah yields no bones, no metal or armor, no roads or fortifications.
[This is the creation of the straw man. Ether 15:2 says Coriantumr "saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children."
This was long before the final battle at Cumorah. Whether Coriantumr was thinking about those killed during his lifetime, or those killed throughout the history of his people, this verse is unrelated to Cumorah. It is only several verses later when Coriantumr flees to the waters of Ripliancum, and there are several battles before they end up by the hill Ramah (Cumorah).
If, as I have concluded, Coriantumr is reflecting on the people lost over the previous 33+ generations (say, 2,000 years), it works out to about 1,000 per year (plus wives and children) killed in various battles. If there was a battle every decade, we'd have 10,000 killed per battle. There's a wide range of possibilities, consistent with the text, but nothing like 2 million killed at Cumorah.
As discussed, Mormon did not claim to see hundreds of thousands dead at Cumorah.]
POPULATION PERSPECTIVE
No known ancient population base has been sufficiently large and concentrated enough to sustain the massive numbers suggested in the Book of Mormon.
[Good point, which is why the straw man is ridiculous on its face.]
Human survival was long a precarious struggle, starvation a constant threat. Prior to industrialization, large scale agriculture, energy production, medicine and the domestication of animals, it was not possible to sustain such a vast civilization in one location. There is simply no evidence supporting any population growth of remotely similar scale anywhere in the world.
[And there is no such scenario described in the Book of Mormon. The rest of this section simply attacks the ridiculous straw man.]
The notion of 2,000,000 warriors feeding themselves in a single nomadic location, while fighting a protracted war, merits additional consideration. Even if we grant advanced metal weaponry, anyone who has ever hunted wild game will immediately comprehend the myriad compounding problems of such a massive endeavor. Within just a few days, every living creature within walking distance would have either fled or been consumed.
Envision the City of Phoenix relying upon primitive hunting and gathering to sustain its hungry population while leaving absolutely no trace behind.
A GATHERING OF FEWER THAN 1,000,000 PEOPLE
B.H. ROBERTS QUESTIONS CUMMORAH
“This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same ‘hill’ marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this hill was called the ‘Hill Cumorah,’ by the Jaredites the ‘Hill Ramah’; it was that same ‘hill,’ in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the ‘Mormon Hill,’ of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. [1]
[So far, no problem.]
“According to the Book of Mormon, the Hill Cumorah of the Nephites – the Ramah of the Jaredites – must be regarded as a natural monument overlooking ancient and extensive battle fields. Around it, early in the Sixth Century B.C., the Jaredites were destroyed. Here, also, a thousand years later, at the close of the fourth century A. D., the Nephites met with practical annihilation in a battle which, whether judged by the importance of the changes it wrought in the affairs of one of the world’s continents, or the number slain, ranks as one of the world’s great battles.
[B.H. Roberts ignored Oliver Cowdery's explanation of the numbers slain, perhaps to discuss the straw man that others had invented.]
In view of these Book of Mormon facts, one would naturally expect to find some evidences in this section of the country for such wonderful historical events. Here one has a right to expect the evidences of military fortifications; for, though a thousand years had elapsed between the destruction of the Nephites and the discovery of America by the Europeans, still some military monuments would doubtless survive that length of time.” [2]
[When Heber C. Kimball visited Cumorah in 1832, he reported seeing the embankments which have since been mostly plowed under. There were fortifications on hilltops throughout western New York, of which a few remain still today.]
“Only one more reference to Nephite wars will be necessary…mentioned here because it will bring us once more face to face with that strange parallelism we have found so many times in Book of Mormon events. This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples…on the same battle site, with the same hill. For identification of the Hill Cumorah…Hill Ramah of the Jaredites (Mormon 6:1-11 and Ether 15:11). Also in Oliver’s letters on “Early scenes and Incidents in Church History” there is an identification of Cumorah and Ramah.” [3]
[Here he references Oliver's letter, but ignores Oliver's count of the dead.]
THE HILL CUMORAH IN 1800S
LDS CHURCH CONFIRMS N.Y. LOCATION
If David Whitmer is to be trusted as one of the three primary Book of Mormon witnesses, should we not also rely upon his assertion that the golden plates were returned to a cave within the Hill Cumorah, “In the State of New York.” [4]
[Definitely.]
Oliver Cowdery, another of Smith’s primary witnesses, described how he personally accompanied Smith multiple times to return the plates into the Hill Cumorah. He reported that a cave opened before them, containing the sword of Laban upon a table, and “wagon loads” of plates stacked high around the cavern. [5] Note that in Smith’s day, the relatively small hill was barren of trees, in contrast to the Church’s depictions of a lush forest shielding the sacred plates from discovery.
[Several rhetorical tricks here, including paraphrasing and adjectives.
This is why it's always better to read the original accounts instead of paraphrased accounts.
Brigham Young reported: "Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room." This could be read as a magical experience, or it could be read as Oliver opening a trap door to a man-made room, which is what one would expect if Mormon was concealing the repository from the Lamanites.
"Relatively small hill" is relative to what? The hill stands out from others in the area due to its sharp rise. From the top you can see all the way to Rochester, about 25 miles away.
There are no descriptions of the hill "in Smith's day," but people infer it was barren from later accounts. Farmers would only clear land if they could farm it, but the north end of Cumorah is too steep for farming.
Anciently, Native Americans typically cleared the tops of the highest hills to allow line-of-sight communication over long distances, which suggests the top of Cumorah could have been cleared for a long time. But there was no reason for Indians or farmers to clear the steep sides of the hill where the plates were.]
LDS prophets consistently spoke of that very hill near Joseph’s home, such as when Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama…and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.”
“It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.”
“Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history….” [6]
[This is all accurate.]
- Gordon Hinkley stood at the hill in 1977 and repeated that it happened there.
- Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, 56.
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, 331.
- President Marion G. Romney, LDS General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975, 35.
- Apostle LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, ch 7.
- Elder George Reynolds, The Story of the Book of Mormon, ch.69, 325.
“Cumorah, the artificial hill of North America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. — That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord.” (The Latter-day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221) “The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York.” [7]
[This is from James Talmage's book, Articles of Faith, in which Talmage quotes W.W. Phelps' speculation that contradicts what Oliver wrote.]
“The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening.” [8]
[Orson Pratt not only ignored Oliver, he ignored the way Joseph Smith deleted Orson's hemispheric model in the Wentworth letter.]
“We visited the Hill Cumorah…We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill.” [9]
[This is George Albert Smith in 1909, again ignoring what Oliver wrote.]
“These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites.” [10]
[Notes 10-13 are from Orson Pratt again.]
“Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.” [11]
“It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York.” [12]
“Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people arountario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites.” [13]
“The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his’ son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them.” [14]
[President Ivins was correct here.]
“In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation . . . . This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites.” [15]
[President Romney was correct here.]
“Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York… Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.“ [16]
[McConkie was correct here.]
“Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.” [17]
[McConkie was correct here.]
“Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. — That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord.” [18]
[This is W.W. Phelps, writing his speculation to Oliver Cowdery.]
MODERN CUMORAH CONTRADICTIONS – NOT THAT HILL
Over the years, many Book of Mormon scholars have suggested that we can’t know the exact location of the Hill Cumorah described in the Book of Mormon.
[Exactly. These LDS scholars have ignored what Oliver wrote and have repudiated the teachings of the prophets.]
Some scholars suggest that Mormon hid a massive cache of records in a hill, but not that hill, because Moroni wandered for a time with the few plates he had.
[This is M2C, the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory that many LDS consider absurd.]
“In accord with these general observations about New York and Pennsylvania, we come to our principal object—the Hill Cumorah. Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. No artifacts, no walls, no trenches, no arrowheads. The area immediately surrounding the hill is similarly clean. Pre-Columbian people did not settle or build here. This is not the place of Mormon’s last stand. We must look elsewhere for that hill.” [19]
[This is John Clark's speculation. I've addressed his claim in detail, such as here: http://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2018/01/getting-real-about-cumorah-part-1-john.html.]
LEARN MORE:
- Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, BYU Studies: Archaeology and Cumorah Questions
RETURN OF THE PLATES TO CUMORAH
“When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to hill Cumorah, which he did… the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and specious room…. and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls.” [20]
Joseph’s purported experience could only have been experienced in his mind’s eye, as we know beyond any doubt that no cave exists within the thoroughly explored Hill Cumorah. Brigham Young related a story about the undiscovered cave at Conference on June 17, 1877.
[The Hill Cumorah has not been "thoroughly explored" in any sense, but it turns out a room matching the description was apparently found on the north part of the hill. I have photos of it. Also, it was reported that when they dug the foundation for the Moroni statue, underground chambers collapsed and were filled with cement, although I haven't been able to find documentation about that. Also, I have dug into another drumlin in the area and found it to be mostly clay, which can support a man-made chamber easily. These are not piles of gravel as some have claimed.]
CHURCH ART DEPICTING MANY PLATES
Heber C Kimball in 1856 taught “…more records than ten men could carry. There were books piled upon tables, book upon book.” [21]
Numerous early LDS leaders and non-members recounted the cave story, including Hyrum Smith, Orson Pratt, Edward Stevenson, David Whitmer, William Horne, W.W. Phelps and Elizabeth Kane.
“Early in 1928, the hill Cumorah was purchased by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So that today that great depository of many ancient records is being held in reserve against the time when future revelations and translations will be given to the world… But most important of all, the hill Cumorah became the depository of all the ancient American records (Mormon 6:6). This included not only the abridgment made by Mormon, but the records of the plates of Nephi (both large and small), the brass plates of Laban (brought from the land of Jerusalem), and the plates of Ether.” [22]
[This is all accurately reported here.]
LEARN MORE
- The Hill Cumorah’s Cave, Cameron Packer, Maxwell Institute, BYU, 2004
- Where is Cumorah, Sandra Tanner
- List of Cumorah Location References
[2] New Witnesses for God, B.H. Roberts, 67.
[3] Studies of Book of Mormon, 277.
[4] Deseret Evening News, Aug 16, 1878.
[5] Journal of Discourses 1878, 19:38.
[6] Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, 232-43.
[7] Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, ch 14.
[8] Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol 14, 331.
[9] Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, 56.
[10] Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol 16, 50.
[11] Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol 20, 62.
[12] Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol 22, 224.
[13] Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol 17, 24.
[14] President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session.
[15] President Marion G. Romney, LDS General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975, 35.
[16] Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, 174-175.
[17] Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, 174-175.
[18] Messenger and Advocate, vol 2, no 2, 221.
[19] BYU Studies
[20] Journal of Discourses 19:38, Brigham Young, June 17, 1877.
[21] Journal of Discourses, vol IV, 105.
[22] Liahona, Elders Journal June 25, 1929, 5-6.
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